Interview with The Honourable Stéphane Dion

As part of a series of interviews that Think Forward will be conducting with Members of Parliament and political party candidates heading into the 2015 Federal Election, Think Forward Managing Editor Michael Hurley recently spoke with Liberal MP Stéphane Dion to discuss a range of issues affecting Canadian youth, from rising tuition fees to unpaid internships to high youth unemployment.

The following is a transcript of the phone interview that Michael conducted with Mr. Dion earlier this month. 

Michael Hurley: One of the objectives that we're trying to achieve with Think Forward is to engage young people on social and political issues that are important to them, and to generate interest in politics among young Canadians heading into the 2015 Federal Election.

And so we do that in two ways: first, by exploring social and political issues that directly affect youth on our website and social media pages; and second, by recruiting high school and university students, recent graduates, and young professionals as guest columnists for our blog.

And two major concerns for today's students are the skyrocketing tuition fees that they have to pay when working their way through school, and the crushing debt that they face once they graduate.

So my question for you is: Does the federal government need to play a more prominent role in funding post-secondary education? And if not, what can be done to make college and university more affordable for students?

Stéphane Dion: Yes, as you know, the federal government plays an important role in providing student financial aid, and it's integral for the government to play this role.

In my own 2008 platform, when I was the leader of the Liberal Party, what we were proposing for student financial aid was very strong.

And now Justin Trudeau is insisting that we address rising costs for middle class families, including the cost of post-secondary education.

We are also concerned that the debtload that students are carrying right now is far too heavy. And so, I believe both of these issues will be addressed in our platform when the election starts.

We also feel that rather than implementing unfair tax breaks for the wealthiest 10 percent of families, as the Conservatives are proposing, we should instead invest in areas that will benefit all Canadians, and that includes making smart investments in education and improving access to education. And this will be a key issue for Mr. Trudeau heading into the federal election.

MH: Once students graduate, many apply for internships in order to gain experience in their field. But we're seeing that, increasingly, these internships are unpaid, even though unpaid interns often perform the same work as employees.

Should the federal government take steps to regulate unpaid internships through the Canada Labour Code, and ensure that interns who perform the work of employees are paid for their work?

SD: Yes, I think we are at that point. As long as this practice was limited, one may see it as something that was positive – for instance, in very difficult circumstances where, say, a small employer wasn't able to pay an intern, but was still able to provide a valuable experience to them, that may have made sense.

But when it's become too systematic as a practice, then the concern is that it's a form of cheap labour. In fact, it's a form of free labour. So it begins to affect everyone – employers, employees who have lost opportunities, and young people who have no opportunity to earn a living once they are working.

And this is occuring in a context where, because of the economic downturn that we had in 2008, if you compare the number of jobs that are availabe to youth now, to before the recession, it is very low. More than 250,000 jobs have been lost and not recovered.

And so many young people are desperate when you look at this issue. So what we as Liberals think we should do is, as a first step, conduct a study to properly track unpaid work and to make it very clear that, while this is not a "usual" practice, it has become a serious and legitimate problem that we need to address.

And it's why we're asking the Conservatives to conduct a study on this issue. We insist on that, but they are ignoring the problem. And that's a real concern for us.

In the meantime, we are actively consulting everyone – young workers, employers – to see how we can make sure that we don't ban a practice that makes sense when it is carefully used, but can prohibit the type of abuse that we are seeing now.

MH: You've likely seen the recent Toronto Star article that revealed the federal government has hired 961 unpaid interns since 2008, but has only hired 22 of those interns for paid positions. Do you feel that the government is contributing to the problem of unpaid work replacing paid employment?

SD: Yes, they are contributing, mostly by ignoring the problem that abuse may happen within the federal public service. If that's the case, it's clearly a problem because the federal government should be setting an example to follow as an employer. If the federal government does not take the lead, then the private sector may abuse as well, based on what the government is doing.   

MH: Along those lines, I wanted to talk about the issues of youth unemployment and underemployment.

At 13.5 percent, Canada's youth unemployment rate is over double the rate of the genreral population, and one in four university graduates between the ages of 25 and 29 are currently underemployed.

In your opinion, what types of policies could the federal government pursue to reduce youth unemployment and underemployment in Canada?

SD: Well, in June of last year, the Standing Committee on Finance published a report called Youth Employment in Canada: Challenges and Potential Solutions, and our party submitted a Supplementary Report with specific recommendations, which I encourage your audience to look at.

And one of the main recommendations that we made was for the federal government to reverse its funding cuts to the Youth Employment Strategy, and to reverse its cuts to the number of young Canadians employed through the Canada Summer Jobs Program, the Federal Student Work Experience Program, and the Co-operative Education and Internship Program.

Unfortunately, the Conservatives have cut $98 million in funding to the Youth Employment Strategy, even though its their flagship program for youth employment. And they've also cut the number of student jobs created through the Canada Summer Jobs Program by more than half.

So we are calling on the government to reverse its cuts to these programs.

MH: Some would argue that, when it comes to policy-making, young people are largely ignored by governments because many of us do not make our voices heard at the ballot box.

Could reforming our voting system – by adopting some form of proportional representation, for instance – potentially compel more young people to vote?

SD: It is one solution, yes, although the main problem is that many people do not believe they have a duty to vote, compared to previous generations who generally did believe this.

But, to speak to your question, I woud like to see us move towards some form of proportional representation, but also preferential voting because it promotes cooperation among candidates and parties. So parties would have to convince voters who support other parties that they are a good, alternative choice, and this would encourage parties to highlight similarities in their platforms, and to cooperate after elections. 

For example, it is well known that – while I believe our party is better than theirs – I have great respect and admiration for the Green Party leader, Elizabeth May. Under preferential voting, we would each try to attract as many first and second choice votes as possible, and you would do that in part by persuading the other candidate's supporters that you are an acceptable second choice; that you share similar values.

And I think that would be one way to improve voter turnout, not only among youth, but all Canadians, because of the cooperation we would see between parties, and because people would feel like their vote counts more (than under our current system).

MH: Do you think that some of the nastiness we see in politics, and some of the personal attacks we see in the House of Commons, discourage young people from voting?

SD: Yes, we've seen that with some of the attack ads that the Conservatives have used against myself and others, and that may discourage some people from voting.

But again, I get back to the issue of citizens perceiving voting as their duty. It was only a few generations ago that Canadians were taught by their parents and grandparents, by labour unions and other organizations, that voting was their duty and they had a responsibility to vote.

And that's why I'm so supportive of the educational work that Elections Canada and other organizations are doing. They are trying to educate citizens about the importance of voting, and are encouraging Canadians to participate in the electoral process, which is crucial.

MH: You're one of the leading authorities on the environment and climate change in Parliament.

What are your thoughts on the approach that the Harper Government has taken toward addressing climate change?

SD: It is terrible, it really is. And if we continue on our current path, we are looking at a 3 to 4 degree increase in the global average temperature, which would be catastrophic for the planet. I think the reason why we are seeing so little action action from this government, on the issue of climate change, is because Prime Minister Harper is skeptical of climate change and the science behind it. I remember, even after Stephen Harper became Prime Minister, he would refer to "so called" greenhouse gases in some of his speeches. Well, they are not "so called," they are real.

And so I'm encouraged that, under Mr. Trudeau's leadership, our party is proposing to work with the provinces to create emissions reduction targets, and to put a price on carbon. 

You'll remember when I was leader of the party, the Conservatives attacked our plan to price carbon as a "job-killing carbon tax," the so-called job-killing carbon tax. But since then, none of them have been able to quote one study which shows that the revenue-neutral cabon tax that you have in British Columbia, for example, has killed jobs.

To the contrary, all of the research that has been done on this issue – by the WTO, researchers at MIT, and others – show that if it's done right, carbon pricing is good for the economy, not just the environment.

So I'm very disappointed, of course, with what Mr. Harper is doing, and I know Mr. Trudeau will do much more (to fight climate change). Now, if you ask me what would need to be done to prevent a 2 degree rise in the global average temperature, we cannot achieve that alone. I think we need a world carbon price to go there, but at least a Canada lead by Mr. Trudeau would start to be part of the solution, instead of being part of the problem.  

MH: This year is an election year, and while the fixed election date is set for October 19th, it can be argued that the major political parties have already begun campaigning.

What will the Liberal Party be doing to attract support from young voters heading into and during the 2015 Federal Election?

SD: I think we have a leader who is very inspiring to a lot of Canadians, but especially to young Canadians. He is well known, and he cares about the issues facing young people. He has met with thousands and thousands of young Canadians everywhere, and he is well received. So I think Mr. Trudeau himself will be an inspiration to increase voter turnout among youth in Canada.

The other point I would make is that, it's not only that Mr. Trudeau cares about issues that are important to young Canadians, but he actually intends to focus on those issues both during and after the election.

We just spoke about tuition fees and post-secondary education. And we mentioned the environment. Along with foreign policy and individual rights, these issues are at the core of what Justin and our party will be campaigining on, including creating jobs for youth.

And the last point I would mention is his committment to improve national youth volunteerism programs. When I was responsible for official languages, for example, it was very important to improve the exchange programs offered to youth in Canada. If you haven't experienced learning French in Canada, you should have that opportunity – it should be offered to all English-speaking young Canadians, and the same applies for Francophones. To have an experience in a community that is English speaking somehwere in Canada.

That was key in my mind, and I'm pleased to have a leader who will make these kinds of programs something that we need to improve. The same should apply for high school programs that focus on mock elections, for example, this kind of experience.

MH: Are you referring to the Student Vote Canada program?

SD: Yes, of course it's provincial jurisdiction for participating in schools, but Elections Canada should be encouraged to provide all of its expertise to students, to ensure that this type of learning is systematic – something that all young Canadians will have an experience with.

MH: And we could assume this would affect the issue that we were talking about before with respect to voter turnout among youth?

SD: Yes, I think if we do all of this – if we have leaders who are inspiring to youth; if we focus on issues that are important to them; if we boost young volunteerism programs and exchanges; if we give them a systematic experience with mock elections; if we do all of that, we could see an improvement in voter turnout for youth.

It's not easy to do, for the reason we discussed before – the sense of duty to vote is not the same for today's generations if you compare them with older ones – but we should not give up. There is a lot of room for improvement, for strategies to be developed, and I know Mr. Trudeau is committed to that.

MH: Finally, you've had a long and succesful career as a politician, beginning with your appointment as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs in 1996.

What advice would you give to young people who may be considering a career in politics?

SD: You have to have a conviction that there is something you want to improve in your society. If you do it for yourself or your ego, you will fail. You may be elected as a politician, but I'm sure you will not stay in the books of history.

I disagree with many of our former leaders, but I would never dispute that they came into politics with a lot of convictions. If there is something you want to do for your fellow citizens, for your country, that is key.

There are many ways by which you can do this – you may invest your time and skills in science or other fields – but one avenue is politics. And if you go into politics at this very moment, you need to know how to convince others of your convictions.

But if you want to convince others of something you don't believe yourself – in your body, in your soul – I would suggest avoiding politics.

MH: That sounds like very helpful advice.

Mr. Dion, I want to thank you for taking the time to speak to me today.

SD: Thank you Michael.

Stéphane Dion is the Member of Parliament for Saint-Laurent—Cartierville. As the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs between 1996 and 2003, he was instrumental in bringing a number of federal-provincial negotiations to fruition. From 2006 to 2008, Mr. Dion served as Leader of the Liberal Party of Canada and Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Commons. He currently acts as the Liberal Critic for Intergovernmental Affairs, the Queen’s Privy Council of Canada, and Canadian Heritage and Official Languages.